So, I have been recently started reading and rereading the original runs of Fantastic Four and Amazing Spider-Man. This has in part been spurred on by questions about the relative influence of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby upon comics, and who deserves the bulk of the credit for Stuff. Due to the existence of Spider-Man, Amazing Fantasy #15, and the fact that I can't really justify giving Steve Ditko much credit for the ideology underlying a character like Spider-Man ("With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" is a sentiment diametrically opposed to the ethos of Objectivism), I have often in the past given Stan Lee a lot of the credit for the Marvel Universe, the Marvel Ethos, and a larger influence on comics in general. But, most people these days seem to give Kirby the bulk of credit for such things, perhaps in response to the undeniably shabbier treatment Kirby has received at the hand of Marvel and the general comics industry (Does Kirby's family see any more for the New Gods? I mean, one of these days Darkseid is going to be the major villain in a major motion picture. Why the Kirby estate see any money from that?).
Anyways, today I went on Wikipedia and added up some numbers. Keep in mind that I added up all of these number on a computer calculator, so there is a distinct possibility that I have some major errors in here.
For the total number of comic titles that Stan Lee has either a writer, plotter, or co-plotter credit, there are 946 entries listed on Wikipedia, by my addition. However, Strange Tales, Tales to Astonish, and Tales of Suspense usually ran two stories, and some of his credits for those titles were listed twice, so the actual number of individual issues involved is lower by a significant number, maybe as many as 100. Lee's only other listed credits are one thing for Simon and Shuster and the 15 comics for DC, 14 of which were just some BS hype thing called Just Imagine Stan Lee Creating where the conceit was Stan Lee created classic DC heroes based off of just the names. I remember those being pretty terrible and not counting for any sort of legacy.
Jack Kirby has 532 stories listed for Marvel Comics. Now, none of his stories for those three anthology stories listed above overlap. However, in each place he is listed as performing one of the stories, so giving him a credit for full title for each of those probably justifies giving Stan Lee double credits for when his anthology title credits overlap. But to be even, it's absolutely necessary to point out that drawing each of these titles was a much more time consuming process that writing them, especially given that this is the Marvel Method we are talking about. In addition to that, Jack has credits for 29 issues of Timely Comics, the work he did for what eventually became Marvel Comics, including the the work where he co-created Captain America. He also has credits on 284 comics from DC, and 113 comics from other publishers, resulting in a total comics credits of 958. Considering many of those titles are ones where he is either a co-plotter or full on writer, that really is just a staggering achievement in Comic Storytelling.
Also, the Wikipedia section on Characters Created By Stan Lee has 347 entries, and Characters Created by Jack Kirby has 316 entries. No idea how accurate either number is, or what even counts as a character here. So those number could be completely arbitrary.
Showing posts with label comics. Show all posts
Showing posts with label comics. Show all posts
Friday, May 23, 2014
Monday, May 20, 2013
Comics are fun.
So, after a pretty long interregnum I have suddenly gotten back into superhero comics. In a big way. Specifically, Marvel Comics. I don't know if this is some slow-burning response to the Avengers movie reactivated by Iron Man 3 or what, but I recently spent like a day reading wikipedia articles and the back histories of tons Marvel characters and suddenly found myself interested in what was happening to the characters in Marvel comics RIGHT NOW, (or what's happening in Marvel Now, Ha!) and started reading articles trying to figure out was would be a good jumping on point, which lead to reading about Marvel Now and how that was basically set up by the Avengers Vs. X-Men crossover event. So I went on Amazon, where they tend to mark comic volumes down twenty to forty percent, and ordered that in hardcover (there are more comics included if you order the hardcover, also the pages are bigger), and well as some other Marvel Now titles that looked interesting, artist and writers I liked or had heard good things about.
Thinking back on it, I think one of the main motivators was some tumblr I had stumbled upon that posted pages and scenes from various Marvel comics, including stuff from All-New X-Men, one o the first additional volumes I got. Huh? Cyclops is a villain?! The Original Team has been transported into the present, which means Jean Grey is back, and a boss? Where when why? How can I figure out what is going on here?
So that's why I wanted to read Avengers Vs. X-men. I hadn't read superhero comics in 6 years, I realized, and I simply missed the characters. I mean, the movies are nice, and those are new versions of the characters, not the one that I grew up with and watched grow and change, that grew and changed, apparently, without me. I had originally given up on them because I decided, what with the Civil War, World War Hulk, the Initiative, Captain America dying, Spider-Man's arc with the revealing of his identity and then apparently (I later found out) the in-continuity retcon of his marriage, that in some sense the Marvel universe had passed me by. The stories, the characters, as I had grown up with them, the themes I had associated with them, they were gone. The people working on them now just did not value them or think of them in the same way I did. The Civil War, in a sense, seemed to me to be a nice to conclusion to the Marvel Universe as I knew it. I could get off the merry-go-round. There were other, outside personal stuff, going on as well: my comic shop closing, moving to a new state, suddenly not having any money. But even with all that I could have easily started up again, found a new comic shop, bought just the main titles I liked, spent money on comics instead of beer (probably would have been a wise move). But I didn't. I just stopped.
So I got Avengers Vs. X-men and within a couple of pages the Scarlet Witch is fighting MODOK across a double-page spread, drawn by Frank Cho, with the White House centered in the background, and I just started giggling. What I was looking at was just so delirious and ridiculous that I finally rediscovered everything I had been missing, I don't think I had had a moment of just such pure FUN from a piece of entertainment in years. I mean, MODOK! MODOK as a concept is just so completely fucking mad that I find it impossible not to smile whenever he pops up or even gets mentioned in anything. And the Scarlet Witch? I mean, following everything that had been happening to her with Avengers Disassembled and House of M, having her back in action was like a weird kind of relief, like characters can bounce back! They eventually all come back! Also, in front of the White House. Yes. And come on! Double Page spreads! Way to take advantage of that canvas, Cho!
Reading through the rest of the arc, seeing characters I had like and even loved, fighting and getting on the wrong side of everything, having Professor X die, Captain America matching up against Cyclops, of all people (One of my biggest problems with the X-Men movies is that they failed to give proper due to Cyclops. In there actual X-Men comics themselves, as the original team leader, Cyclops is pretty much THE most important character, even more so that Professor X, or Jean Grey, who is dead half that time and needs to be brought back NOW, and definitely Wolverine, who though central to the Marvel Universe as a whole, has ultimately, in the context of the X-Men been basically a loose cannon, a great side character. You're not properly adapting the X-Men unless Cyclops has a fairly large role. Seeing that the comics had, with their mutant properties, evolved Cyclops to a point where he was basically leading all mutantkind and was thus a character with enough stature to be pitted against Captain America, [nice to see him back and running things again, by the way. Stay in your lab building stuff, Tony.] of all people, was a nice sign to me that the Marvel U was doing a good job now of building on what had come before, even if this meant Cyclops had completely lost his gourd. Though that was actually kind of in character too, what with M-Day and Cyclops having evolved over time into being a bit of a dick.) made me realize something about comics, about all the deaths and retcons and stuff. I learned to just stop worrying about that stuff and love it. They're superheroes! They are like Celtic gods, constantly fighting and dying and being reborn in the Cauldron of Plenty, or at least the equivalent of it in a world of science fiction and magic. I mean, of course heroes in such a world would keep dying and coming back. of course they would keep having their allegiances shift and mutate over time, that's just the way of Heroic Cycles. Death is just something that happens and gets conquered in the course of a story. Right now, in comics, Peter Parker is dead. Doctor Octopus switched bodies with him and Peter died while in Doctor Octopus' body. But Doctor Octopus has all of Spider-Man's memories and is now trying to be a hero in his place, even though he is still a tool. Now, that doesn't mean that Peter is gone forever! This is an arc! An arc where Peter is dead, but don't worry, he will still figure a way or this, and come back and be Spider-Man again, and then Doctor Octopus with go back to being dead again, and a new arc with come after that one. These just fun stories about impossible people, why not have them conquer death a couple of times along the way? It doesn't cheapen anything, and if it's really bad and ruins a character, well, it can always be retconned. Say it's something Mephisto did or something. Or MODOK. Seriously, why complain about death not meaning anything in a world where there is MODOK?
So, after reading all that I was hooked, and started ordering more and more volumes online, and also, I started trying to work my way forward, ordering volumes starting with where I left off and moving forward, starting with a the first deluxe volume of Mighty Avengers (whose first arc was drawn by Frank Cho. I think after that one panel I just wanted more Frank Cho.). After reading that, I saw just how tied in it was to New Avengers, so I was reading, that, which meant I had to read Secret Invasion, and wow. Secret Invasion was an insane thing to read, because it basically turned all those new Avengers comics into a single story, going back to the first issue and on through to the end of Scret Invasion. I had left off right in the middle of a massive story! One that stretched from Secret War and Avengers Disassembled through New Avengers and and on, and one that was sandwiched inside of another massive story that ran from Avengers Disassembled through to Avengers Vs. X-Men. (Avengers Vs. X-Men really does seem to wrap up a ton of long running story arcs, both in the world of the Avengers and in the world of the X-Men. It's kind of awesome.) I was totally wrong to think that the stories I was reading were over and done with. Now I have a new hobby, trying to get complete runs of collected additions of comics off Amazon for the least amount of money possible. I have now spent like 4 hundred dollars on comic volumes on the internet, and everyday is like waiting for Christmas now. I have the entirety of Avengers comics heading up until the present coming to me in the mail, as well as a fair chunk of X-Men and Thor comics coming was well.
It is fun.
Thinking back on it, I think one of the main motivators was some tumblr I had stumbled upon that posted pages and scenes from various Marvel comics, including stuff from All-New X-Men, one o the first additional volumes I got. Huh? Cyclops is a villain?! The Original Team has been transported into the present, which means Jean Grey is back, and a boss? Where when why? How can I figure out what is going on here?
So that's why I wanted to read Avengers Vs. X-men. I hadn't read superhero comics in 6 years, I realized, and I simply missed the characters. I mean, the movies are nice, and those are new versions of the characters, not the one that I grew up with and watched grow and change, that grew and changed, apparently, without me. I had originally given up on them because I decided, what with the Civil War, World War Hulk, the Initiative, Captain America dying, Spider-Man's arc with the revealing of his identity and then apparently (I later found out) the in-continuity retcon of his marriage, that in some sense the Marvel universe had passed me by. The stories, the characters, as I had grown up with them, the themes I had associated with them, they were gone. The people working on them now just did not value them or think of them in the same way I did. The Civil War, in a sense, seemed to me to be a nice to conclusion to the Marvel Universe as I knew it. I could get off the merry-go-round. There were other, outside personal stuff, going on as well: my comic shop closing, moving to a new state, suddenly not having any money. But even with all that I could have easily started up again, found a new comic shop, bought just the main titles I liked, spent money on comics instead of beer (probably would have been a wise move). But I didn't. I just stopped.
So I got Avengers Vs. X-men and within a couple of pages the Scarlet Witch is fighting MODOK across a double-page spread, drawn by Frank Cho, with the White House centered in the background, and I just started giggling. What I was looking at was just so delirious and ridiculous that I finally rediscovered everything I had been missing, I don't think I had had a moment of just such pure FUN from a piece of entertainment in years. I mean, MODOK! MODOK as a concept is just so completely fucking mad that I find it impossible not to smile whenever he pops up or even gets mentioned in anything. And the Scarlet Witch? I mean, following everything that had been happening to her with Avengers Disassembled and House of M, having her back in action was like a weird kind of relief, like characters can bounce back! They eventually all come back! Also, in front of the White House. Yes. And come on! Double Page spreads! Way to take advantage of that canvas, Cho!
Reading through the rest of the arc, seeing characters I had like and even loved, fighting and getting on the wrong side of everything, having Professor X die, Captain America matching up against Cyclops, of all people (One of my biggest problems with the X-Men movies is that they failed to give proper due to Cyclops. In there actual X-Men comics themselves, as the original team leader, Cyclops is pretty much THE most important character, even more so that Professor X, or Jean Grey, who is dead half that time and needs to be brought back NOW, and definitely Wolverine, who though central to the Marvel Universe as a whole, has ultimately, in the context of the X-Men been basically a loose cannon, a great side character. You're not properly adapting the X-Men unless Cyclops has a fairly large role. Seeing that the comics had, with their mutant properties, evolved Cyclops to a point where he was basically leading all mutantkind and was thus a character with enough stature to be pitted against Captain America, [nice to see him back and running things again, by the way. Stay in your lab building stuff, Tony.] of all people, was a nice sign to me that the Marvel U was doing a good job now of building on what had come before, even if this meant Cyclops had completely lost his gourd. Though that was actually kind of in character too, what with M-Day and Cyclops having evolved over time into being a bit of a dick.) made me realize something about comics, about all the deaths and retcons and stuff. I learned to just stop worrying about that stuff and love it. They're superheroes! They are like Celtic gods, constantly fighting and dying and being reborn in the Cauldron of Plenty, or at least the equivalent of it in a world of science fiction and magic. I mean, of course heroes in such a world would keep dying and coming back. of course they would keep having their allegiances shift and mutate over time, that's just the way of Heroic Cycles. Death is just something that happens and gets conquered in the course of a story. Right now, in comics, Peter Parker is dead. Doctor Octopus switched bodies with him and Peter died while in Doctor Octopus' body. But Doctor Octopus has all of Spider-Man's memories and is now trying to be a hero in his place, even though he is still a tool. Now, that doesn't mean that Peter is gone forever! This is an arc! An arc where Peter is dead, but don't worry, he will still figure a way or this, and come back and be Spider-Man again, and then Doctor Octopus with go back to being dead again, and a new arc with come after that one. These just fun stories about impossible people, why not have them conquer death a couple of times along the way? It doesn't cheapen anything, and if it's really bad and ruins a character, well, it can always be retconned. Say it's something Mephisto did or something. Or MODOK. Seriously, why complain about death not meaning anything in a world where there is MODOK?
So, after reading all that I was hooked, and started ordering more and more volumes online, and also, I started trying to work my way forward, ordering volumes starting with where I left off and moving forward, starting with a the first deluxe volume of Mighty Avengers (whose first arc was drawn by Frank Cho. I think after that one panel I just wanted more Frank Cho.). After reading that, I saw just how tied in it was to New Avengers, so I was reading, that, which meant I had to read Secret Invasion, and wow. Secret Invasion was an insane thing to read, because it basically turned all those new Avengers comics into a single story, going back to the first issue and on through to the end of Scret Invasion. I had left off right in the middle of a massive story! One that stretched from Secret War and Avengers Disassembled through New Avengers and and on, and one that was sandwiched inside of another massive story that ran from Avengers Disassembled through to Avengers Vs. X-Men. (Avengers Vs. X-Men really does seem to wrap up a ton of long running story arcs, both in the world of the Avengers and in the world of the X-Men. It's kind of awesome.) I was totally wrong to think that the stories I was reading were over and done with. Now I have a new hobby, trying to get complete runs of collected additions of comics off Amazon for the least amount of money possible. I have now spent like 4 hundred dollars on comic volumes on the internet, and everyday is like waiting for Christmas now. I have the entirety of Avengers comics heading up until the present coming to me in the mail, as well as a fair chunk of X-Men and Thor comics coming was well.
It is fun.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)